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> <channel><title>Comments on: Book Review: Trend Following</title> <atom:link href="http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/</link> <description>Helping Institutions and Ordinary People Invest Better by Focusing on Risk Control</description> <lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 21:31:47 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Michael Covel</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21625</link> <dc:creator>Michael Covel</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:03:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21625</guid> <description>James and Paul, trend following traders don&#039;t have black boxes (whatever that means exactly). They know exactly when they will buy and sell along with how much they will bet on each trade before they ever enter. How is that black box? I don&#039;t care if folks say trend following as I describe doesn&#039;t work, or don&#039;t like the strategy, etc., but it seems like here in this thread it is simply not understood.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James and Paul, trend following traders don&#8217;t have black boxes (whatever that means exactly). They know exactly when they will buy and sell along with how much they will bet on each trade before they ever enter. How is that black box? I don&#8217;t care if folks say trend following as I describe doesn&#8217;t work, or don&#8217;t like the strategy, etc., but it seems like here in this thread it is simply not understood.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Michael Covel</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21624</link> <dc:creator>Michael Covel</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:49:49 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21624</guid> <description>Thanks Tradahmike for the clarification, but you do realize the traders who practice trend following as I describe in my book do not identify the underlying engines of trend causation? Their performance track records, often going back decades, were not generated as you describe. To me it seems there are many conversations going on here, and many views, but it doesn&#039;t seem like trend following as described in my book is clearly grasped across the board. Fundamentals are not used by trend followers -- they trade price action.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Tradahmike for the clarification, but you do realize the traders who practice trend following as I describe in my book do not identify the underlying engines of trend causation? Their performance track records, often going back decades, were not generated as you describe. To me it seems there are many conversations going on here, and many views, but it doesn&#8217;t seem like trend following as described in my book is clearly grasped across the board. Fundamentals are not used by trend followers &#8212; they trade price action.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: tradahmike</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21623</link> <dc:creator>tradahmike</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:39:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21623</guid> <description>Michael, thanks for your reply.
The reason that determining &quot;the causal factors that brought about the trend in the first&quot; is important is that without the identifying the underlying engines of trend causation, there is no way to differentiate between current market swings that turn into trends and current market swings that fail and turn into consolidations or reversals.
Consider all the millions of investment vehicles that trade every day. Each one of them is in the process of developing its own price discovery, creating a trail of price movement that we can chart and observe in hindsight.
Some of these price charts would show instruments in narrow sideways consolidations. Some would show instruments in more volatile, trendless chop. Some  would show instruments in robust directional moves, either up or down.
What does any of these visible price histories alone tell about the probabilities of any one of these individual instruments developing an exploitable trend of the type that you posit investors should seek out? In my opinion, nothing.
Without identifying a set of underlying trend-generating phenomena, past price action alone tells you nothing about whether a current price swing will become a trend or not. The trends are only visible after they are well developed or completed, and jumping on a already-developed trend structure provides no additional margin of safety against suffering an immediate price reversal.
Looking at the charts of past trends, however, does create a powerful implication to the human mind that this type of past trending behavior in the markets can be identified and exploited in real time. My contention is that current price swings that will later become the trends that we observe in hindsight cannot be differentiated in real time from the market swings that do not ultimately develop into trends.
If investors wanted to attempt to capture trending behavior without trying to determine whether a trend was in progress or not, simply leave a partial position of an already successful trade in the market to run wherever the market takes it.
Eventually, some of these positions would participate in significant market trends. But you could only see the trend structure in hindsight, and you would still not know when the trends had ended, even if you rode the entire thing profitably.
Just my 2 cents, thanks.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, thanks for your reply.</p><p>The reason that determining &#8220;the causal factors that brought about the trend in the first&#8221; is important is that without the identifying the underlying engines of trend causation, there is no way to differentiate between current market swings that turn into trends and current market swings that fail and turn into consolidations or reversals.</p><p>Consider all the millions of investment vehicles that trade every day. Each one of them is in the process of developing its own price discovery, creating a trail of price movement that we can chart and observe in hindsight.</p><p>Some of these price charts would show instruments in narrow sideways consolidations. Some would show instruments in more volatile, trendless chop. Some  would show instruments in robust directional moves, either up or down.</p><p>What does any of these visible price histories alone tell about the probabilities of any one of these individual instruments developing an exploitable trend of the type that you posit investors should seek out? In my opinion, nothing.</p><p>Without identifying a set of underlying trend-generating phenomena, past price action alone tells you nothing about whether a current price swing will become a trend or not. The trends are only visible after they are well developed or completed, and jumping on a already-developed trend structure provides no additional margin of safety against suffering an immediate price reversal.</p><p>Looking at the charts of past trends, however, does create a powerful implication to the human mind that this type of past trending behavior in the markets can be identified and exploited in real time. My contention is that current price swings that will later become the trends that we observe in hindsight cannot be differentiated in real time from the market swings that do not ultimately develop into trends.</p><p>If investors wanted to attempt to capture trending behavior without trying to determine whether a trend was in progress or not, simply leave a partial position of an already successful trade in the market to run wherever the market takes it.</p><p>Eventually, some of these positions would participate in significant market trends. But you could only see the trend structure in hindsight, and you would still not know when the trends had ended, even if you rode the entire thing profitably.</p><p>Just my 2 cents, thanks.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Paul in Kansas City</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21621</link> <dc:creator>Paul in Kansas City</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:35:18 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21621</guid> <description>Very good comment James</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very good comment James</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: James Cullen</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21611</link> <dc:creator>James Cullen</dc:creator> <pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 05:41:14 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21611</guid> <description>Michael,
Not really sure if I can speak for Tradahmike, but I&#039;m in agreement with him - it&#039;s a question of replicability, and being able to determine that there&#039;s actually &quot;something there&quot; making the whole trend-following process work.
Put another way, the stock market is a black box; we see only the output (price changes). Understanding causal factors ensures us that there is some logic to the black box, and that we&#039;re doing something more than throwing darts randomly.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,<br
/> Not really sure if I can speak for Tradahmike, but I&#8217;m in agreement with him &#8211; it&#8217;s a question of replicability, and being able to determine that there&#8217;s actually &#8220;something there&#8221; making the whole trend-following process work.<br
/> Put another way, the stock market is a black box; we see only the output (price changes). Understanding causal factors ensures us that there is some logic to the black box, and that we&#8217;re doing something more than throwing darts randomly.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Michael Covel</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21607</link> <dc:creator>Michael Covel</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:47:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21607</guid> <description>Tradahmike, why are you concerned with determining &quot;the causal factors that brought about the trend in the first place?&quot; Why does that help to trade as a technical trend follower?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tradahmike, why are you concerned with determining &#8220;the causal factors that brought about the trend in the first place?&#8221; Why does that help to trade as a technical trend follower?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: tradahmike</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21606</link> <dc:creator>tradahmike</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 21:27:55 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21606</guid> <description>Most of the head-slapping, &quot;why didn&#039;t I take advantage of that?&quot; recognition of trends occurs in hindsight.
It is the power of this backward-looking recognition in the human mind that compels us to then look forward to then try to discover trends in progress, and thus exploit this seemingly obvious and easy path to financial gain. This appearance of obviousness is an illusion.
Before you can follow a trend, you must be able to  determine that a trend exists and that it is actually in progress at the present moment. Is it possible to make this determination with any certainty?
Sadly, there is no way to absolutely assure oneself that a directional move in the market will continue for any period of time. One cannot even develop a reliable relative measure of the success of a real-time trend determination methodology without the necessary data. How many of these datasets exist?
There may be trend-seeking investors who feel that they possess a methodology that permits to detect when a current market swing is in fact part of a trend and when it is not, but the &quot;proof&quot; of their ability to actually do this would require a valid sized sampling of their trades, cataloged over a sufficient amount of time to permit development of statistical measures of the magnitude and the significance of their outperformance. And this still wouldn&#039;t prove anything about the future outcomes of using this method for real-time trend identification.
Even with an ourperforming method, how could the outside observer attribute the source of the outperformance to the trend-following investment philosophy?
Let&#039;s say you look back and see that a trend has occurred in the past. How can you determine the causal factors that brought about the trend in the first place? If you could determine the factors that precipitated the trend, how can you be assured that the same factors occurring in the future in a different market would generate the same buying and selling responses that created the prior trend?
Most portfolio-based trend exploiting methods try to overcome these murky questions with  diversification.
My take is that seeking trends in the market and talking about trend following is a form of a faith-based activity.
If you have an unshakable belief that trends exist (because you have seen that they occurred in the past), and you believe that you can detect when a specific market swing is in fact part of a trend and when it is not, then that belief by itself and the confidence that it engenders in the investor is the major benefit that results.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the head-slapping, &#8220;why didn&#8217;t I take advantage of that?&#8221; recognition of trends occurs in hindsight.</p><p>It is the power of this backward-looking recognition in the human mind that compels us to then look forward to then try to discover trends in progress, and thus exploit this seemingly obvious and easy path to financial gain. This appearance of obviousness is an illusion.</p><p>Before you can follow a trend, you must be able to  determine that a trend exists and that it is actually in progress at the present moment. Is it possible to make this determination with any certainty?</p><p>Sadly, there is no way to absolutely assure oneself that a directional move in the market will continue for any period of time. One cannot even develop a reliable relative measure of the success of a real-time trend determination methodology without the necessary data. How many of these datasets exist?</p><p>There may be trend-seeking investors who feel that they possess a methodology that permits to detect when a current market swing is in fact part of a trend and when it is not, but the &#8220;proof&#8221; of their ability to actually do this would require a valid sized sampling of their trades, cataloged over a sufficient amount of time to permit development of statistical measures of the magnitude and the significance of their outperformance. And this still wouldn&#8217;t prove anything about the future outcomes of using this method for real-time trend identification.</p><p>Even with an ourperforming method, how could the outside observer attribute the source of the outperformance to the trend-following investment philosophy?</p><p>Let&#8217;s say you look back and see that a trend has occurred in the past. How can you determine the causal factors that brought about the trend in the first place? If you could determine the factors that precipitated the trend, how can you be assured that the same factors occurring in the future in a different market would generate the same buying and selling responses that created the prior trend?</p><p>Most portfolio-based trend exploiting methods try to overcome these murky questions with  diversification.</p><p>My take is that seeking trends in the market and talking about trend following is a form of a faith-based activity.</p><p>If you have an unshakable belief that trends exist (because you have seen that they occurred in the past), and you believe that you can detect when a specific market swing is in fact part of a trend and when it is not, then that belief by itself and the confidence that it engenders in the investor is the major benefit that results.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: solfest</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21604</link> <dc:creator>solfest</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 14:43:11 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21604</guid> <description>I find the amount of time people will spend arguing about trading or investing styles rather odd. I can only surmise the reason people do this is to facilitate the sale of their particular style to the public.
If you have a style or plan that works well for you I would think you may just want to keep it to yourself.
Unless of course you are a true humanitarian and you feel compelled to &quot;give&quot; your great gift to all mankind.
But then if it is a gift you wouldn’t have to defend it.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the amount of time people will spend arguing about trading or investing styles rather odd. I can only surmise the reason people do this is to facilitate the sale of their particular style to the public.</p><p>If you have a style or plan that works well for you I would think you may just want to keep it to yourself.</p><p>Unless of course you are a true humanitarian and you feel compelled to &#8220;give&#8221; your great gift to all mankind.</p><p>But then if it is a gift you wouldn’t have to defend it.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: PaulinKansasCity</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21599</link> <dc:creator>PaulinKansasCity</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 23:44:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21599</guid> <description>Thanks to all of the above for the discussion. very helpful</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to all of the above for the discussion. very helpful</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Michael Covel</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/04/25/book-review-trend-following/comment-page-1/#comment-21597</link> <dc:creator>Michael Covel</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 19:30:31 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=1614#comment-21597</guid> <description>&quot;Trend Following&quot; is a subject that the vast majority of investors have never heard of -- even though track records showing its success go back decades across many traders (not just one icon as in the fundamental world). That said David, I am willing to consider your &quot;marrying a long run factor and a short run factor&quot; investing style. Keeping with the spirit of my book, a book backed by audited performance records month by month, where can I find the performance records of this style you speak of?</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Trend Following&#8221; is a subject that the vast majority of investors have never heard of &#8212; even though track records showing its success go back decades across many traders (not just one icon as in the fundamental world). That said David, I am willing to consider your &#8220;marrying a long run factor and a short run factor&#8221; investing style. Keeping with the spirit of my book, a book backed by audited performance records month by month, where can I find the performance records of this style you speak of?</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
