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> <channel><title>Comments on: Book Review: Expectations Investing</title> <atom:link href="http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/</link> <description>Helping Institutions and Ordinary People Invest Better by Focusing on Risk Control</description> <lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 22:02:53 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator> <item><title>By: Steven Milos</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23535</link> <dc:creator>Steven Milos</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:46:38 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23535</guid> <description>David,
As a retail investor, if you wanted to play Brazil in currency form, you could try something like long EWZ, and then short an ETF like Australia (or a basket of ETFs), which should have a high correlation with EWZ to remove the equity market risk.  You could then go long the Aussie dollar ETF to hedge your implied short A$ risk.  A bit of a hassle, but I think you&#039;d end up with a reasonable approximation for the real.
I agree with your view on the bond market, hence my short position.
Steve
long TBT</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p><p>As a retail investor, if you wanted to play Brazil in currency form, you could try something like long EWZ, and then short an ETF like Australia (or a basket of ETFs), which should have a high correlation with EWZ to remove the equity market risk.  You could then go long the Aussie dollar ETF to hedge your implied short A$ risk.  A bit of a hassle, but I think you&#8217;d end up with a reasonable approximation for the real.</p><p>I agree with your view on the bond market, hence my short position.</p><p>Steve<br
/> long TBT</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: DaveinHackensack</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23533</link> <dc:creator>DaveinHackensack</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:51:46 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23533</guid> <description>&lt;I&gt;&quot;I can’t play in stocks smaller than $100 million, which I believe all of those were when you first mentioned them. So, with full respect, way to go!&quot;&lt;/I&gt;
Thanks, David. As I wrote when I first mentioned those stocks here on 9/4, they would probably be too small for you but perhaps not for some of your readers. IMO, going small is an advantage that too few individual investors take advantage of.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I can’t play in stocks smaller than $100 million, which I believe all of those were when you first mentioned them. So, with full respect, way to go!&#8221;</i></p><p>Thanks, David. As I wrote when I first mentioned those stocks here on 9/4, they would probably be too small for you but perhaps not for some of your readers. IMO, going small is an advantage that too few individual investors take advantage of.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: SamB</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23530</link> <dc:creator>SamB</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 11:20:38 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23530</guid> <description>I actually kept that Dilbert cartoon.  If you want a copy, drop me a line and I&#039;ll e-mail it to you.
SamB</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually kept that Dilbert cartoon.  If you want a copy, drop me a line and I&#8217;ll e-mail it to you.</p><p>SamB</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: David Merkel</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23528</link> <dc:creator>David Merkel</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 03:34:56 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23528</guid> <description>Dave in H, sorry, I&#039;m going to respond.  Good for you.  I play in larger companies; I have to because I want to run institutional money.  I can&#039;t play in stocks smaller than $100 million, which I believe all of those were when you first mentioned them.  So, with full respect, way to go!
Steve, I think once the Fed steps away, yields will rise a little, and if they dare liquidate, they will rise a lot.  I am not constructive on any of the US bond market at present.  I prefer shorter to longer, less volatility to more, less credit risk, and more currency risk.  I particularly like currencies that have and/or might tighten policy, such as Australia, and uh, hmmm... maybe Brazil, but I can&#039;t find that in a retail form.
But aside from foreign currencies, I am flying the Jolly Roger here, and saying that yield = poison.  This is a time to preserve capital, not make great gains.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave in H, sorry, I&#8217;m going to respond.  Good for you.  I play in larger companies; I have to because I want to run institutional money.  I can&#8217;t play in stocks smaller than $100 million, which I believe all of those were when you first mentioned them.  So, with full respect, way to go!</p><p>Steve, I think once the Fed steps away, yields will rise a little, and if they dare liquidate, they will rise a lot.  I am not constructive on any of the US bond market at present.  I prefer shorter to longer, less volatility to more, less credit risk, and more currency risk.  I particularly like currencies that have and/or might tighten policy, such as Australia, and uh, hmmm&#8230; maybe Brazil, but I can&#8217;t find that in a retail form.</p><p>But aside from foreign currencies, I am flying the Jolly Roger here, and saying that yield = poison.  This is a time to preserve capital, not make great gains.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Steven Milos</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23524</link> <dc:creator>Steven Milos</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:50:43 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23524</guid> <description>Hi David,
I&#039;m not a fan of DCF either; I prefer to try and estimate a free-cash flow yield.  With respect to Kieran&#039;s points that you addressed:  DCF works best with a stable business model.  Otherwise, the cash flow input is very difficult to estimate accurately.  Or, you end up with a very high discount rate to compensate for the unpredictability of the model.  In any case, I&#039;m not a fan.  Thoughtful post though, thanks.
As a separate topic, what&#039;s your view of the Treasury market now?  Yield curve slope?  Recent increase in TIPS yield?  I&#039;m very interested to see what happens as the Fed steps away from the market; the November refunding should be very, very interesting.  I enjoy reading John Jansen, but I know you&#039;ll have an informed opinion, as an ex-bond man...
Steve
long TBT</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David,</p><p>I&#8217;m not a fan of DCF either; I prefer to try and estimate a free-cash flow yield.  With respect to Kieran&#8217;s points that you addressed:  DCF works best with a stable business model.  Otherwise, the cash flow input is very difficult to estimate accurately.  Or, you end up with a very high discount rate to compensate for the unpredictability of the model.  In any case, I&#8217;m not a fan.  Thoughtful post though, thanks.</p><p>As a separate topic, what&#8217;s your view of the Treasury market now?  Yield curve slope?  Recent increase in TIPS yield?  I&#8217;m very interested to see what happens as the Fed steps away from the market; the November refunding should be very, very interesting.  I enjoy reading John Jansen, but I know you&#8217;ll have an informed opinion, as an ex-bond man&#8230;</p><p>Steve<br
/> long TBT</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: DaveinHackensack</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23523</link> <dc:creator>DaveinHackensack</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:45:01 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23523</guid> <description>Actually, USEG was up another &lt;a href=&quot;http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=useg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;65%&lt;/a&gt; today, so the three stocks I mentioned here on 9/4 are now up... ah, what does it matter. You&#039;re not going to respond to this comment anyway.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, USEG was up another <a
href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=useg" rel="nofollow">65%</a> today, so the three stocks I mentioned here on 9/4 are now up&#8230; ah, what does it matter. You&#8217;re not going to respond to this comment anyway.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: David Merkel</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23511</link> <dc:creator>David Merkel</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:21:18 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23511</guid> <description>Kieran -- another good point.  I was going to mention that, but I felt it would fall into the &quot;cheap shot&quot; category, because they were careful not to sound too bullish on it.  Personally, I would have found that to be a difficult name to do DCF on.  Not a stable business.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kieran &#8212; another good point.  I was going to mention that, but I felt it would fall into the &#8220;cheap shot&#8221; category, because they were careful not to sound too bullish on it.  Personally, I would have found that to be a difficult name to do DCF on.  Not a stable business.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Kieran</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23510</link> <dc:creator>Kieran</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:11:48 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23510</guid> <description>As I recall, the primary example of DCF that this book uses is Gateway.  Not sure exactly when this book came out, but it was around 2000.  The point was to show how using DCF analysis could provide you with a reasonable range of the potential values a stock might have down the road.  In so doing, the DCF analysis provided a positive and a negative expectation of Gateway earnings going forward over a seven year time horizon.  I don&#039;t recall exactly what the resulting expectations were, but even the pessimistic view was well above Gateway&#039;s actual earnings.  The reason?  Dell undercut Gateway&#039;s business model and essentially put them out of business.  The lesson?  DCF is only good if you a) have a firm understanding of a company&#039;s business that relevant market and b) can reasonably predict multiple years down the road how that will develop.  With technology, that&#039;s hard to do.  Yahoo&#039;s 1997 DCF analysis couldn&#039;t have predicted the development of Google.  Similarly, what does Google&#039;s DCF fail to contemplate?  Hard to say, but my point is only to say that DCF must contemplate a large margin of safety, because many of these expectations can go wrong.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I recall, the primary example of DCF that this book uses is Gateway.  Not sure exactly when this book came out, but it was around 2000.  The point was to show how using DCF analysis could provide you with a reasonable range of the potential values a stock might have down the road.  In so doing, the DCF analysis provided a positive and a negative expectation of Gateway earnings going forward over a seven year time horizon.  I don&#8217;t recall exactly what the resulting expectations were, but even the pessimistic view was well above Gateway&#8217;s actual earnings.  The reason?  Dell undercut Gateway&#8217;s business model and essentially put them out of business.  The lesson?  DCF is only good if you a) have a firm understanding of a company&#8217;s business that relevant market and b) can reasonably predict multiple years down the road how that will develop.  With technology, that&#8217;s hard to do.  Yahoo&#8217;s 1997 DCF analysis couldn&#8217;t have predicted the development of Google.  Similarly, what does Google&#8217;s DCF fail to contemplate?  Hard to say, but my point is only to say that DCF must contemplate a large margin of safety, because many of these expectations can go wrong.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: tom brakke</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23509</link> <dc:creator>tom brakke</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 19:22:15 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23509</guid> <description>Thoughtful as always.
This reminded me of a due diligence visit at a research firm.  In a one-on-one with an analyst, I asked him about his valuation methods, and he said that he relied on multiples.
Noting his resume, I asked, &quot;Didn&#039;t they teach you DCF at (major university)?&quot;
He said they did, but that he didn&#039;t like it because there were &quot;too many assumptions.&quot;
The nice thing about doing a DCF is that if it&#039;s done well you force yourself to lay your assumptions out.  It&#039;s also easier to use probabilities if you want.  Multiples are very useful, but too many assumptions get buried; real rigor comes from taking the next step.
In all cases, whatever the method, the most important thing is to remember that there are no &quot;answers&quot; to be had; the exploration and consideration are the keys to insight.
Which is why, by the way, you are the best investment blogger around.  You explore and consider and let us in on your thoughts.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thoughtful as always.</p><p>This reminded me of a due diligence visit at a research firm.  In a one-on-one with an analyst, I asked him about his valuation methods, and he said that he relied on multiples.</p><p>Noting his resume, I asked, &#8220;Didn&#8217;t they teach you DCF at (major university)?&#8221;</p><p>He said they did, but that he didn&#8217;t like it because there were &#8220;too many assumptions.&#8221;</p><p>The nice thing about doing a DCF is that if it&#8217;s done well you force yourself to lay your assumptions out.  It&#8217;s also easier to use probabilities if you want.  Multiples are very useful, but too many assumptions get buried; real rigor comes from taking the next step.</p><p>In all cases, whatever the method, the most important thing is to remember that there are no &#8220;answers&#8221; to be had; the exploration and consideration are the keys to insight.</p><p>Which is why, by the way, you are the best investment blogger around.  You explore and consider and let us in on your thoughts.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: David Merkel</title><link>http://alephblog.com/2009/10/14/book-review-expectations-investing/comment-page-1/#comment-23508</link> <dc:creator>David Merkel</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:36:32 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://alephblog.com/?p=2082#comment-23508</guid> <description>Anon -- points well made.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon &#8212; points well made.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
